The House, Tuesday, March 19, 2019

Rep. Barbara Griffin (R - Hills 6)Thank you, Mister Speaker. I rise in regard to a proposed amendment to HB 109. You will find it in your seat pocket. It is a short amendment. HB 109, which is before us out of committee deals with a background check with a purported purpose of keeping firearm and ammunition transfers safe. The background check is through NICS or the National Instant Criminal Background Check System. Essentially the underlying bill, which you don't have before you, but is about a page or two pages proposes that after going through this system if the sale is not prohibited as a result of the check then the transfer occurs to ensure compliance with all laws. The amendment I propose in your seat pocket adds paragraph 2, which provides that in accordance with the Gun Control Act, if a dealer determines that the applicant or the perspective buyer is an illegal alien, that should be reported to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. One federal law in existence that's fairly clear is that illegal aliens are not to own firearms or have ammunition. They are prohibited, but the NICS system would not automatically show that to a perspective seller or a dealer because in certain circumstances so long as an appropriate ID is presented and there are circumstances where illegal aliens can get that appropriate ID without disclosing that they are an illegal alien or presenting false documentation, that person can supply the appropriate identification and be able to pass through the system. This paragraph that is being added simply requires that if the status of the buyer is determined to be that of an illegal alien at which point that person is not allowed under federal law to have arms or firearms that your seller or dealer reports it to the agency that's in charge of NICS and obviously didn't have the information to begin with. So, this is not new law. It is closing what it recognized as a loophole in firearms law in regard to the fact that there is a prohibition on illegal aliens having firearms and I simply ask that you pass this amendment to ensure that indeed the purpose of HB 109 is met that all laws are complied with. Thank you and I ask for a roll call vote.

Speaker ShurtleffThe question before the House is on the adoption of amendment (1101h). Representative Griffin has requested a roll call vote. Is that sufficiently seconded? It is sufficiently seconded. This will be a roll call vote. Members will kindly take their seats. The House will be in order. The question before the House is the adoption of amendment (1101h). Rep. Cushing had signed up to speak against the amendment. He will be given that opportunity now. Rep. Cushing.

Rep. Robert Renny Cushing (D - Rock 21)Thank you, Mister Speaker. Mister Speaker, I rise to speak in opposition to the proposed amendment. This was not a topic that came before the committee during public hearings, but I do recognize the importance to gun violence prevention that when people who are not eligible to purchase a firearm and attempt to do so, that there should be some public response to that. The problem that I have with this amendment is that there are a number of individuals under current law who are not illegible to buy a firearm and they should be included in any legislation that would trigger further investigation. Those people include someone who is under indictment or been convicted in any court of a crime, a fugitive from justice, an unlawful user or addict of any controlled substance, someone who has been adjudicated as mentally defective, someone who is unlawfully in the United States, which this addresses, someone who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under a dishonorable conditions, someone who has a court order out restraining them from harassing, stalking or threatening an intimate partner and a series of other individuals. I would be willing to work and look forward to working next year, I know the committee will, to have a law that would require that individuals trying to obtain a firearm illegally, that there be a report to local law enforcement so that we can protect the public, but this amendment simply fails to do so. I would urge the body to vote this amendment down and press the red button?

Speaker ShurtleffThe question before the House is the adoption of floor amendment (1101h). Rep. Steven Smith is recognized for a parliamentary inquiry.

Rep. Steven Smith (R - Sull 11)Thank you, Mister Speaker. If I know that compliance with all laws by all persons is a principle we should all support and that no one should be exempt. If I understand that there is an objection that the amendment does cover something like that, just doesn't go far enough and if I recognize that is no reason to stop it, then would I press the green button to adopt the amendment and make progress?

Speaker ShurtleffThe question before the House is the adoption of floor amendment (1101h). The Chair recognizes Rep. Cushing for a parliamentary inquiry.

Rep. Robert Renny Cushing (D - Rock 21)Thank you, Mister Speaker. Mister Speaker, if I recognize that there are flaws in the proposed amendment and I want to move forward with legislation that will help protect public safety, would I now vote against the amendment by pressing the red button.

Speaker ShurtleffThis will be a roll call vote. The question before the House is the adoption of amendment (1101h). If you are in favor, you'll press the green button. If you are opposed, you'll press the red button. Voting stations will be open for 30 seconds. Have all members present had an opportunity to vote? The House will be attentive to the state of the vote. With 92 members voting Yea and 237 voting Nay, the amendment fails. The question now before the House is on the recommendation that the bill Ought to Pass. Now I recognize Rep. Burt from Goffstown to speak against the recommendation of Ought to Pass.

Rep. John Burt (R - Hills 39)Thank you, Mister Speaker. Mister Speaker, if you read the beginning of the bill it says requiring background checks for commercial firearm sales, but it's nothing but that. The problem with this bill is that it sets it for anybody that wants to transfer a gun, not just commercial. There is no problem with illegal gun sales or use and possession of illegal guns that I know of that is happening majorly in New Hampshire, yet what this bill will create is simply a transfer between friends and people at ranges and etc. That is where the problem is. The other thing I am concerned about is if an instructor wants to hand their sidearm, their gun, over to the student, a background check would have to be done and then in order to give the gun back to the rightful owner, the instructor, another background check would have to be done. Mister Speaker, in committee, we heard from a doctor. All he talked about was Massachusetts, Lawrence, Mass. That's all we heard about. I don't think we live in Lawrence, Mass. We live in New Hampshire. He just kept talking about problems in Lawrence, Mass and again, Mister Speaker, maybe down there they need this, but New Hampshire does not. And, another thing that was said also in committee, Mister Speaker, that really, it made me sit back and go oh my God, I know exactly what is going on here. A Representative said during I think it was the exec session that we had, that this is one small step forward. That's what he said, and I asked what is one small step forward? So, what I'm going to do Mister Speaker is I'm pressing the red button because I am asking for a roll call please. So, we do not take one small step forward to gun confiscation and that is what this bill is all about. Thank you, Mister Speaker.

Speaker ShurtleffWill the member yield to a question? Rep. Marsh, you are recognized for a question.

Rep. William Marsh (D - Carr 8)Thank you, Mister Speaker and thank you for yielding to my question. I've enjoyed marching in the Wolfeboro 4th of July parade with my Brown Bess musket for a great many years and the little boys love it when we shoot blanks during the parade. Now, last year I happened to be busy and I lent it to another trusted member of the historical society to do that for me. Would this bill make me a felon if I did this?

Speaker ShurtleffThe question before the House is the recommendation that the bill Ought to Pass. The Chair recognizes Rep. Meuse, the member from Portsmouth.

Rep. David Meuse (D - Rock 29)Thank you, Mister Speaker. Mister Speaker, members of the House, I rise today in support of HB 109. This legislation would close a gaping loophole in our current system. Today when you buy a firearm from a federally licensed firearm dealer in New Hampshire, federal law requires a background check to be conducted. The goal of the background check is pretty simple. It's to make sure that convicted felons, domestic abuses and other people banned by law from owning firearms can't simply walk into a gun shop, lay down a credit card and walk out with a weapon that makes it easier for them to commit a crime or to murder an innocent person. Background checks reduce the risk that a person who should not have access to a firearm can get access to a firearm. Background checks are also what we mean when we say things like, with rights comes responsibilities. Unfortunately, there is a gap in our current system that you can drive a truck through. It's called the private sale exemption and to date 19 other states have taken responsibility to close that gap. Under federal law, only licensed firearms dealers making commercial sales are required to conduct background checks prior to the sale of a firearm. Private sales and transfers between private parties are exempt so when an unlicensed private seller decides to sell a firearm and finds a buyer, the sale can often be completed in minutes with no background check required. What this loophole does in a state that doesn't act to close it, is to make it possible for felons, domestic abuses and other prohibited parties to obtain a weapon without going through a background check. All you need is to find a willing seller and no matter what you have done or how many people you have hurt or threatened, you can get a gun even though you would fail a background check if you had to go through a federally licensed firearms dealer by walking into a gun store in New Hampshire. So, here is the thing to keep in mind. This bill is targeted precisely at people whose behavior has disqualified them from purchasing a weapon. It simply requires private sellers to work through a federally licensed firearms dealer to get a background check on a purchaser before the weapon can be exchanged. That's how it works when you purchase a gun at a gun shop now. But, simply reality is that not all firearms sales take place in a gun shop and not every potential customer is a law-abiding citizen. Something else to keep in mind is that this bill only applies to commercial sales. So, what is exactly a commercial sale? It's, "A sale transfer or exchange of a firearm that takes place at a gun show or over the internet as a result of an ad, a posting, a listing or a display." The bottom line is that the seller doesn't advertise the firearm for sale, they won't be subject to the background check before transfer. In fact, HB 109 specifically states, "This chapter shall not apply to a non-commercial private sale transfer or exchange of a firearm between individuals provided neither party to the transaction is a prohibited person." So, contrary to what you might have heard, passing this bill does not mean a father would have to get a background check before giving a firearm to his son. It also doesn't mean that a firearms trainer conducting a class would have to get a background check on a student before lending him or her a firearm. During testimony we heard a lot of concern from gun owners about the inclusion of the word transfers in addition to sales. So, what exactly is a transfer? A commercial transfer happens when a firearm is exchanged or bartered for other goods or services as a result of an ad, a posting, a listing or a display. The inclusion of transfers closes a potential loophole that might make it easy for someone caught selling a commercially advertised firearm without a background check from calling it a transfer instead of a sale or a commercial exchange. According to PolitiFact, 86 to 94% of the people polled nationally support laws like HB 109 that require universal background checks. PolitiFact also says that 70 to 80% of NRA members have indicated their support for legislation like this. In 2016, so did Governor Sununu in a debate prior to his election. So, let's give the Governor the opportunity to reduce the risk of a deadly weapon falling into the wrong hands. When the time comes, please press the green button and show the world that here in New Hampshire, we believe in our rights, but we also believe that with those rights comes the responsibility to protect public safety. Thank you.

Speaker ShurtleffWill the member yield to a question? The member does not yield. The Chair recognizes. Rep. Flanagan has a question for either the Chair or the Vice Chair of the Criminal Justice Committee. As we have said before, it is of the prerogative of those in leadership if they wish to take the question. The member declines.

Rep. Jack Flanagan (R - Hills 26)How about anybody on the committee because I believe this Representative made a mistake as it relates to the law, but I need clarification.

Speaker ShurtleffNo. You can ask another member coming up that question. Thank you. The Chair recognizes the member from Deerfield, Rep. Roy, to speak against the recommendation. The House will be in order. You may proceed.

Rep. Terry Roy (R - Rock 32)Thank you, Mister Speaker. I represent the communities of Candia, Deerfield, Nottingham and Northwood. The citizens in my communities are reasonable people and I'm a reasonable person. This bill is not reasonable. This bill, contrary to what we just heard, does require a background check for a transfer between private people at a gun range, at a store. If you go into a store to look at a gun and you say you would like to see that gun, you can't. You have to have a background check before you can do it. If you take your son to a shooting range and they want to share a gun, you have to get a background check. This is unreasonable. This is not what the people of New Hampshire want. Having to require these background checks, the bill does not require that any federal firearms license actually conduct a background check. So, we can say you have to get a background check, but where are you going to get it done? It doesn't require that they be performed so you actually have to hunt for someone to do it for you. It also doesn't discuss a fee, so I would imagine that they can charge anything they want for this background check. This law is not ready for primetime. The citizens I represent do support background checks and they would like to keep guns out of the hands of people that don't belong having guns, but this doesn't affect them. This just affects law abiding citizens who are trying to transfer a firearm legally be it for training or just to use. If I invite some friends to my house and I ask them if they want to shoot one of my guns, well I can't. I have to find a background check. This law is way too broad and it's not ready for primetime, Mister Speaker. I would ask you to read the actual text of this bill all the way to the bottom and you will see that it is correct that this law mandates background checks for private sales or transfers, not just commercial like the first paragraph said. I would ask you to press the red button and let's think about this before we put another mandate on the New Hampshire citizens. Thank you.

Speaker ShurtleffWill the member yield to a question? Rep. Flanagan, you may inquire.

Rep. Jack Flanagan (R - Hills 26)Thank you, Mister Speaker and I thank the Representative for taking my question. During gun debates, I am always hearing different facts and either it's true or it's not true and the previous speaker had said that there were background checks which I understand there are background checks, but he also had mentioned that you can buy a gun from a private party in the State of New Hampshire under no rules or regulations and I thought in the State of New Hampshire that the law reads that you cannot sell a gun in a private sale unless you know the person you are selling it to. Is that true?

Rep. Terry Roy (R - Rock 32)Yes, that is correct. The current statute prohibits sales of firearms to someone who is not personally known to you.

Speaker ShurtleffWill the member yield to another question? Rep. Horn, you may inquire.

Rep. Werner Horn (R - Merr 3)Thank you, Mister Speaker. Thank you to the Representative for taking my question. I'm a little confused because when somebody refers to a loophole in the law, I thought that a loophole was applied to that section of the law. So, a firearm loophole around commercial sales at gun shows would be implying that the commercial dealer could go out into the parking lot and do business without a background check. Am I confused about the loophole?

Rep. Terry Roy (R - Rock 32)There is no gun show loophole. If you buy a gun at a gun show from a licensed dealer, you will go through a background check there. There is no internet loophole. If you order a gun online and it has to be shipped to a federally licensed dealer in the State of New Hampshire where you have to pick it up and get a background check. So, this thing about a loophole, there really is no loophole. The statute says you can sell a gun privately if you know the person so that's not a loophole. So, there are no loopholes per se.

Speaker ShurtleffWill the member yield to one more question? Rep. Spillane, you may inquire.

Rep. James Spillane (R - Rock 2)Thank you, Mister Speaker. Thank you to the member for taking my question. Since I also represent Deerfield, Candia and Nottingham and I happen to have a son who has now graduated college who I have enjoyed taking out and teaching to hunt for many years, I have a question for you. When my son turned 18 and he was interested in getting his own hunting rifle instead of borrowing mine, I took him out and I bought him his very first rifle for his birthday, which happened to be identical to the one I used and gave it to him. Under this bill, it would appear to me that my giving the rifle to my son for his birthday would be considered a transfer and I would have to run a background check on my son and I would challenge anyone to know my son better than I know him, so I really don't see the point in a background check.

Speaker ShurtleffI know we are getting close to a question mark.

Rep. James Spillane (R - Rock 2)Is that the way this law reads that I would need to run a background check on my own son before giving him his first rifle for his birthday which is a tradition in my family because my father gave me my first gun when I was 18 as well?

Rep. Terry Roy (R - Rock 32)That is unfortunately the case. You would have to run a background check on your son and even more precariously, when my wife and I shoot, and I let her use one of my guns, I have to run a background check on my wife. So, the intent of the law, and I want to give charity to the people who wrote this legislation. We all agree that there should be background checks, but this was written so broadly to encompass so many things that as I said in the beginning it just does not make any sense the way it is written.

Speaker ShurtleffThe question before the House is the recommendation. Would you like to ask a question? State your motion.

Speaker ShurtleffThe motion to table is in order. A division vote has been requested. A roll call has been requested. Is that sufficiently seconded? It is sufficiently seconded. This will be a roll call vote. The question before the House is the motion to table HB 109. The Chair recognizes Rep. Welch for a parliamentary inquiry.

Rep. David Welch (R - Rock 13)Thank you, Mister Speaker. This bill has a lot of problems with it. The Chairman admitted that just a few minutes ago. I think if we table this bill, we will have a chance to look at it again in a calmer atmosphere so please vote green to table.

Speaker ShurtleffThe question before the House is the motion to table HB 109. The Chair recognizes Rep. Ley for a parliamentary inquiry.

Rep. Douglas Ley (D - Ches 9)Thank you, Mister Speaker. Mister Speaker, if I know this bill has garnered a great deal of public interest. And, Mister Speaker, if I also know that we are nearly finished with this entire debate on this bill, therefore, we should continue and push on through, would I reject the motion to table by pressing the red button? Thank you.

Speaker ShurtleffThis will be a roll call vote. The question before the House is the motion to table HB 109. If you are in favor, you'll press the green button. If you are opposed, you'll press the red button. Voting stations will be open for 30 seconds. Have all members present had an opportunity to vote? The House will be attentive to the state of the vote. With 147 voting Yea and 202 voting Nay, the motion to table is defeated. The Chair recognizes the last speaker on this bill, the member from Concord, Rep. Rogers.

Rep. Katherine Rogers (D - Merr 28)Thank you, Mister Speaker. I rise today in support of HB 109. To make the best decision possible on an issue that stirs such strong opinions and strong emotions, it's always good to look at the facts. According to national statistics, states that require criminal background checks on all handgun sales report % fewer women are fatally shot by their partners, 48% fewer police are killed with handguns and 64% fewer crime guns are trafficked out of the state. It is notable that New Hampshire has the lowest number of gun deaths per capita, however, we also have one of the highest rates of crime gun exports, exporting three times as many guns as we import. The use of firearms is responsible for 48% of the state's domestic violence homicides. The New Hampshire Department of Safety estimates that 33,000 of the estimated 82,500 sales that occur next year will not be required to have a background check. When opponents of the legislation say that there is no problem with illegal gun sales, use or possession in New Hampshire, these statistics and these facts show us the reality. You've also heard this will create a ban on simple transfers of firearms between friends, families and neighbors and you've also heard this will prohibit an instructor from loaning a gun to his student or a friend borrowing another friend's hunting rifle or giving your son a rifle on his birthday. Read the bill. Those claims are false and absurd. We can't resort to fear tactics when deciding issues like this. Read the bill. Mister Speaker, this bill is about commercial sales. It won't affect law abiding gun owners selling and trading guns between friends and families. It makes an exception for private non-commercial sales or transfers between friends and families. We've heard the old fallback, HB 109 will only affect law abiding citizens because criminals of course don't follow the law anyway. By that logic, why are any of us here? Why do we stay here 3 days this week? Every law could be refuted with that same paradox and society would swiftly descend into anarchy. Laws against rape, murder or theft, for example, are rarely followed by rapists, murderers and thieves. By that fact, such people exist in society and that is the only reason the laws exist in the first place. The argument is incoherent and ignores the statistics. The evidence of other states prove that a simple background check bill reduces gun violence. I'm not telling you that HB 109 will prevent every tragedy, but it will make a difference. It will save lives and it will make our communities a safer place to live. It's simple. It's constitutional and it's a regulation that fits with the beliefs of the majority of our population. Please press the gun button for Spring, get one day jump on Spring, and vote for 109 as Ought to Pass. Thank you.

Speaker ShurtleffWill the member yield to a question? The member will not yield. The question before the House is the recommendation that the bill Ought to Pass. Rep. Burt has requested a roll call. It that sufficiently seconded? It is sufficiently seconded. This will be a roll call vote. Members will kindly take their seats. This will be a roll call vote. The question before the House is the recommendation that the bill Ought to Pass. The Chair recognizes Rep. Rice for a parliamentary inquiry.

Rep. Kimberly Rice (R - Hills 37)Thank you, Mister Speaker. If I know that HB 109 has too many unintended consequences for responsible and law-abiding gun owners, instructors, hunters and others, would I now press the red button, so another motion can be made? Thank you.

Speaker ShurtleffThe question is adoption of the recommendation that this bill Ought to Pass. The Chair recognizes Rep. Wallner for a parliamentary inquiry.

Rep. Mary Jane Wallner (D - Merr 10)Thank you, Mister Speaker. If I know that states that require criminal background checks on all handgun sales report 46% fewer women are fatally shot by their partners, 48% fewer police are killed with handguns and 65% fewer guns are trafficked out of state. And, if I know that New Hampshire has the 24th highest rate of crime gun exports, exporting 3 times as many crime guns as we import. And, if I know that HB 109 won't affect law abiding New Hampshire gun owners selling and trading guns between friends and families, it makes an exception for private non-commercial sales or transfers between friends and family, would I now vote yes, support the Criminal Justice Committees' recommendation of Ought to Pass and push the green button?

Speaker ShurtleffThis will be a roll call vote. The question before the House is the recommendation that the bill Ought to Pass. If you are in favor, you'll press the green button. If you are opposed, you'll press the red button. Voting stations will be open for 30 seconds. Have all members present had an opportunity to vote? The House will be attentive to the state of the vote. With 203 members voting Yea and 148 voting Nay, the recommendation is adopted.